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| | Conversion Allegations Against Christians Are For Political Gain- Christian Forum |
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| By Fr Adolf Washington
BANGALORE December 1: Over 500 priests and pastors from various Christian denominations registered participation at an ecumenical meeting December 1st at St. Marks Cathedral on MG Road in Bangalore. Presided over by Archbishop Bernard Moras, Bishop Samuel of the Belivers Church and Bishop Vasant Kumar of the CSI church, the meeting was attended by priests and pastors of the Catholic Church, Church of South India, Full Gospel Church, Believers Church, New LIfe Fellowship, Methodist, Jacobite, Church of Horeb, Baptist Church, Faith Prayer Assembly, Independent Churches, Marthoma, Syrian Orthodox and Touch India Ministries.
The four hour long meeting assumes significance as this is the first ever meeting of priests and pastors of all denominations willing to come under the umbrella of Karnataka United Christian Forum for Human RIghts (KUCFHR) which was formed in September 2008 after a series of attacks on Christian Churches across Karnataka. Archbishop Bernard Moras, president of the Forum informed the gathering of the attempt by the government to pass an anti-conversion bill.
Archbishop Bernard Moras under whose initiative the KUCFHR was formed, told the gathering that "I feel the attacks on our Churches was a sign from God that we need to come together. That is why we started the KUCFHR. The KUCFHR has a threefold common minimum programme that focuses on Faith, Ethics and Common programs. When we came together we made a resolve that all those who want to come under the banner of KUCFHR must decide not to indulge in any kind of induced or forced conversions". The prelate however told the gathering that the issue of forced conversion was "blown out of proportion just to create animosity and insecurity between people of other religious groups against the Christian minority. These allegations are politically hued". He added "If there were cases of forced conversion, it should be established clearly in a court of law. Blanket allegations against the Christian community at large, is only a willful attempt to create disharmony in society and to achieve political mileage" the archbishop said. "The Christian community has never been a threat to anyone. In fact, the services rendered by the Christian community to people of all relgious background, especially the poor and marginalized cannot go unnoticed. Only recently have we been demonized so much by false propaganda" the Archbishop said.
"We have started this organisation not just to address the issue of attacks against the Christian Community, but also to assert our consitutional right to profess and peacefully propogate our Faith just as any other religious group enjoys the privilege. The KUCFHR will also address issues of Human Rights violations" Archbishop Moras said.
Bishop Vasanth Kumar of the Church of South India said "We must thank God for the political climate that actually brought us together in unity. Those who indulged in political manipulations to keep the Christian denomination apart and in conflict with each other, did not realise that coming together was not an impossibility. The KUCFHR is a clear answer to those who thought we cannot come together as Christians of various denominations. As Christians, we have a command from Christ to proclaim the Gospel of Love to all people and as Indians, we have a Constitutional right to proclaim that message. Muslims, Jains, Buddhists and all minority communities enjoy this same privilege, But it is unfortunate that Christians have been victimized and falsely accused." The Bishop matressed the need for "coming together for more programmes where we will gradually discover our common faith and overlook our minor differences in dogma and teaching". Bishop Vasant expressed disappointment over some politicians who were using "religion as a tool for political gain". He said, "If there are any internal politics within us, we will be able shed them when we look at the external politics working against the community".
Addressing the issue of Ecumenism, he observed "In world circles, we will have noticed that there are lesser theological debates and more debates and discussions on issues affecting humanity like AIDS, Enviromenet and Climate Change. This is an indication that we no longer see ourselves as a divided community, but rather a united community focussing on humanitaria issues".
Bishop Samuel of the Believers Church said, "The wave of suspicion created against the Christian community is deliberate with political overtones. However, persecution has been part and parcel of our Fatih experience. It is only when we stand together that we will strengthen each other. We have never indulged in any form of forcible conversion. Conversion is the outcome of a free decision of one who wants to change his faith or way of life, none of us have a right to indulge in forcible conversion. We preach a religion of love and forgiveness. I wonder why anyone should be against a religion that preaches love and forgiveness" the Bishop said.
Jesuit Priest Fr. Ronnie Prabhu, Secretary of the Karnataka Commission for inter-religious dialogue and Ecumensim, co-ordinated the interactions. Secretary for the Commission for Ecumenism, Bangalore Archdiocese, Fr. JA Nathan also addressed the gathering. Journalist Anto Akara who authored "Khandamal- a blot on Indian Secularism" presented his book and shared his first hand experience of the travails of Christians in Orissa and the Government apathy.
More frequent meetings are scheduled to take place to discuss issues affecting the community in Karnataka. A bigger gathering of an expected 1000 priests, pastors and laity from various denominations is scheduled to take place at St. Josephs High School on 13th December.
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| Judith L, India |
Dec 4, 2009 |
| The day we Indian stop fighting on religion and treat it is a personal affair of individuals that day there will be peace and harmony and India will be counted among the developed nations |
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| Shareef Moideen, Mangalore/ Jeddah, Saudi Arabia |
Dec 4, 2009 |
Dalit Man Shot Dead by Upper Caste Men for Sitting on Chair in a village in Bihar – News
2 Dalits are physically assaulted...
• 27 atrocities against Dalits every day
• 13 Dalits murdered every week
• 5 Dalits' homes or possessions burnt every week
• 6 Dalits kidnapped or abducted every week
• 3 Dalit women raped every day
• 11 Dalits beaten every day
• A crime committed against a Dalit every 18 minute
Source: National Campaign on Dalit Human Rights |
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| Kiran, USA |
Dec 4, 2009 |
Rakesh Shetty,
How in the world did you "convert" your wife to Hinduism? Did you invent any conversion mantras? or induction into Hinduism mantras? In what way is she different now from before? Does praying in a temple make someone a Hindu? That is not the case because some Christians in our village always attend festivals in our temple, yet they remain devout Christians. I have prayed in Churches too and I am still categorized as Hindu. So what does it actually mean when you "converted" someone to Hinduism? Does wearing a bindi make you a Hindu? That cannot be the case because one of my school teacher was a Christian and she used to wear bindis everyday. So what has really changed in your wife with respect to religion or way of life?
Mike, USA,
A Christian theologian can say that about Christianity and a Jew will say that about Judaism or any religion X will claim that about their own religion. Does that make one religion better than the other? |
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| Mike, USA |
Dec 3, 2009 |
| David Bentley Hart is a Christian theologian. Here is his view of the Christ event. "Far from being an obscurantist obstacle to human fulfillment, he writes, Christianity actually invented the idea of humanity as we understand it today. Before the Christ event, a confrontation like that between Pilate and Jesus would have been seen much differently--as an appropriate restoration of cosmic and social order, in which the powerful are vindicated and the weak crushed. After that event, writes Hart, "try though we might, we shall never really be able to see Christ's broken, humiliated, and doomed humanity as something self-evidently contemptible and ridiculous.... [We now] see it as encompassing the very mystery of our own humanity: a sublime fragility, at once tragic and magnificent, pitiable and wonderful." |
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| Sachin, UAE |
Dec 3, 2009 |
| Rakesh shetty, You are among the very lucky few guys who got their wife converted to Hindu from Christianity.(if what you say is true)But unfortunately majority of the Hindu guys converted to Christianity to prove their wife, how much they love her. Regarding your statistics, please dont come out with your census of 2001 since conversions was not in large scale in that period. The day Congress came back to power in 2004, they got more funds from no where and world renowned frauds like Benny Hill comes to India to preach Christianity with Congress ministers attending his fraud show. A guy who worked in a STD booth in JP Nagar, Blore was made to walk on his limbs and was told, When Benny Hill touches him, he has to jump saying that he can walk and was a miracle. Luckily residents knew him well and he was a perfect guy even before the show and he was reported in the media about his fraud. Please dont take names of Ashoka or his forefathers or even 1947, i doubt you were even born at that time, they came and are gone. Talk about the future and how this menance has to be stopped of Conversion. |
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| Rakesh Shetty, Mumbai, India |
Dec 3, 2009 |
| Conversion is a very vague word. It has been misused to create fear among the minorities especially the Christians. I was offered a very good job in S. Arabia if I had changed my faith. Moreover, I married a Christian girl from devout Christian family, just like many Hindu boys and converted her to Hinduism, even though she had resisted. Sang Parivar elements are forcibly converting tribals (who are not all Hindus) in various parts of India and yet there is no problem! We attack only Christians because they are the most peace loving people and never retaliate. If there were conversions why the Christian population in India is just 2.6%? In 1947 it was 3.2%. Muslim population was 10% during independence and now it is 14%. Even the Hindu population has increased from 78% to 81% mainly due to the conversions of animists and tribals who had different beliefs and customs. The facts are facts. It seems to me that we are doing a great injustice to the Christians by attacking them, their churches and their religion! We should read Indian History where Ashoka, a Hindu ruler had killed thousands of residents of Kalinga (the present day Orissa), before converting himself to Buddhism. Therefore, let us have a secular outlook and treat everyone equal. There is no end for arguments and counter arguments but one should not forget that by hatred we stand where. We have to know the statistics and then talk. Some vested interests with their eye on vote bank are spreading the falsehood in order to terrorize the Christians, since Christians are not vote banks. Long live communal harmony |
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| Jagdish Rao, Udipi, India |
Dec 3, 2009 |
| I fully agree with Mr. A.S. Mathew. |
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| Dhairya, UAE |
Dec 3, 2009 |
A question to all those readers claiming superiority of christianity over other religions:- Then why have so many christians coverted to Islam (and still converting) and why are Western & Europeans finding divine grace & peace in ISKCON & Hindu way of life (mind you, without any offical conversion)???
My views & comments on the subject:
- Aiming to convert another to your religion is nothing but 'marketing/selling' your religion. Is religion so cheap and does it requires 'numbers' to prove its strength?
- Asking a person to convert to your faith is actually amounting to insulting the other person's religion & faith.
- All should not forget that there is just 'one' supreme being and the various religions / faiths have a common goal to connect to him
- All religions are good & preach peace. It is only the followers who try to differentiate (as of selling their products) and shamelessly claim superiority of their faith over others. Just imagine a person bragging over his superiority over other human beings. What impression wud u have of him?? I guess u got the point. In this regard, I am thankful to the Hindu religion for propogating equal respect & tolerance to all religions (however, sadly this tolerance has not been met with the same respect & admiration from followers of other religions, but in fact has been used to the disadvantage of Hindus)
- One should not blindly follow the teachings of one's faith and must try to question its negative points. Unfortunately, history has shown that anyone trying to do so is victimized & ostracized. In this article / case, it is Mr. Placid Gregory who is met with the same opposition. Hindu faith has few negative points, for eg. caste system, which we Hindus have denounced publically and are constantly trying to rectify the same.
- For people who are ignorant or do not believe that forced conversions exist, I have personally experienced the dubious & luring attempts by the conversion agencies (here I wish to distinguish between genuine social service & charity workers, who hold high esteem in our hearts, and those aggressive sects such as New life, etc. who are actually the bad sheep and bringing a bad name to the entire religion they belong to). All people, moreso from their own religion, must work towards stopping them in their tracks before they spread hatred and division in society.
Finally, peace to humanity & India. JAI HIND !!!! |
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| Placid Gregory, Mangalore, India |
Dec 3, 2009 |
Mr Moras,
In reply I am to mention that Hypocrites are those who preach and do not practice what they preach and the ones who support them unquestioningy, whether right or wrong. When one find's that with the vast powers a priest has, and persistently persecutes the person or persons who dare to rightfully point out their mistakes and these priests are not ready to mend their ways with the age old notion that 'Church cannot err'(When caught red handed in an uncompromising way the immediate reply would be 'we too are humans) and they only are knowledgeable and lay people are ignorant, do not come to the aid of these innocent victims but blindly support such priests; they should be called hypocrites. We find from reports that such priests of questionable character are not even submitting to the orders of their higher authorities, but stick to their posts (post which lays golden eggs) by hook or crook with the help of sympathisers like you. And all the people remain mute spectators. When commented on these matters, the usual reply by people like you will be 'they sacrifice their life for the service of humanity'. Is it a sacrifice or case of selfishness. We know how the parish councils work in some parishes. The members are 50% opted and 50% selected and elected (only yes people are selected by the priests and automatically elected unopposed as most of our people are known for evading responsibilities) so that whatever he says holds good and the Parish Priest is virtually a monarch. As per the report in Rakno a few years back, a priest had written that lay people are not capable of handling financial matters of the church, when the finances of the whole country is maintaned by lay people, they consider it a prerogative of only the priests to handle it. There seems to be no transperancy in church accounts in some parishes. In one parish, the receipts and payments account and balance sheets are kept with the Parish Priest and those who want to verify should come and meet him (It is very well known that no one will approach him) Why such hide seek? Let them publish the accounts of all parishes and in the case of donations collected for the affected people and even in all cases where money is collected from the parishioners or general public, let the accounts be published including the names of the beneficiaries and the amount handed over. All are human beings only. Why give room for unncessary rumours. Let everything be transparent in financial matters.
As for opting for the post of a priest, I don't consider myself eligible as I am not a hypocrite(as quoted by you) to opt for such a post.
For your information, we too have priests and nuns in our family and my comments hold good in their case too.
As for the quote from the Bible, you must know that it is the duty of supporters like you to remove the specks from the eyes of those people who I have commented so that they can see clearly and act rightly and do justice for the post they hold before God and humanity. Please note that the comments I have made are particularily to the priests who fits in this category and not for the priests who genuinely work for humanity(who incidentally are a minority in these days). |
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| Kiran, USA |
Dec 3, 2009 |
Jesus Christ is unique in his birth, death and resurrection. -- AS Mathew
The unique claim is debatable.
A. Birth - There are plenty of Virgin Births in many traditions.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081227133417AAs84oB
The Pandavas of Mahabharata may also be included in that list.
B. Death - It was common practice by the Roman Empire.
Here is a clip from California state university study "Apparently, the first known practice of crucifixion was by the Persians. Alexander and his generals brought it back to the Mediterranean world - Egypt and Carthage. The Romans apparently learned the practice from the
Carthaginians and (as with almost everything the Romans did) rapidly developed a very high degree of efficiency and skill in carry it out. A
number of Roman authors (Livy, Cicero, Tacitys) comment on it.
C. Suffering messiah and Resurrection -A Dead sea scroll stone unearthed suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time. Before the stone writings were discovered, Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, published in 2000 the idea of a suffering messiah before Jesus, using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic literature as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?ei=5087&em=&en=b36ff8422a4e87fe&ex=1215576000&pagewanted=all
My point is not to offend anyone, but avatars and messiahs (messengers) are not unique, but still every religion is also unique in its own way.
Edgar Cayce put it beautifully in one of his readings - "For without Moses and his leader Joshua (that was bodily Jesus) there is no Christ. Christ is not a man. Jesus was the man; Christ the messenger; Christ in all ages, Jesus in one, Joshua in another, Melchizedek in another; these be those that led Judaism!"
(http://edgarcayce.org/ps2/universal_christ_J_Van_Auken.html)
Anyone claiming that their religion is superior is fundamentalist and/or foolish. A religion's main goal is to awaken us to realize our spiritual nature. In other words, make us realize that we cannot really answer the simplest of all questions - "Who am I?" (our name is just an attribute and does not answer the question). |
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| Roshan Pais, India |
Dec 2, 2009 |
Conversion arguments and counter arguments – where does this lead us unless we define the terminology and agree to it.
Can some one tell me what is the difference between FORCED CONVERSION and Just CONVERSION?
All those who are against – Forced conversion – raise their hands!!!
All those against plain conversions raise their hands!!
For those against conversion – do not mislead the PUBLIC or confuse or irritate (in TULU – arenjuna) E.Y.Tians who otherwise have cordial exchange of ideas.
If you are against forced conversions only – then do not talk about plain conversion or through voluntary means – do not MIX APPLES AND ORANGES!!
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I find it rather curious that people who are claiming to be against forced conversions – doing double speak here and demand for an anti- conversion law (define your apples and oranges correctly).
If there needs a referendum – so be it. Swiss have shown it recently – by their BAN on MINARETS and hence shown that they are deeply conservative culturally isolated tribe, who are not tolerant to eastern culture. Whatever it takes, let people decide and settle the issue- right now, almost every week – we have all these confounding religious issues – and Yennane Malla rantings each with its own coterie.
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If all the Christian groups have joined including NEW LIFE, then let them bring out what is acceptable and agreed upon way of their way of spread of their message.
Issue of Humanitarian work Vs Professional target oriented conversion –
The issue here is People here who claim to be against forced conversions seem to target every one and that is unacceptable and condemnable. People have the right to condemn the attacks on their temples or churches (present day not some OB rayana Kaladha – Katheh) – let them condemn the same. I do not find fault with their condemnation at all. Fault lies in blaming the present generation for the mistakes of previous generations. One can go back to apes if taken out of context – so stick to present generation). Do not attempt to justify attacks of present day by some Ajji Kaladha Stupid acts of Portueguese or Moguls or some ALEXANDER THE GREAT!!
Present generation is not answerable top the stupid acts of history. Nor do you equate islam of Indians with some Stupid radicals in other countries!( there seems to be no end to these point less arguments and the façade of rational intellectual transgressions).
Let the concerted efforts of all the Christian groups be able to put to rest all the politically motivated confusion created in the minds of the people through systematic use of media and thus be able to turn the tables . I don’t have any issue here but let harmony return and let us see God in all people and let us see God in all religions irrespective of whether it is SANATHANA DHARMA , CHRISTIANITY OR ISLAM.
Let us not be naïve like we were before so that Britishers were able to devide us. Let us not heed to people who try to mislead us by creating confusion between forced and plain conversion.
PS: personal opinions always need to be considered with a pinch of salt and mine are no exception to that. |
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| sam, Bermuda |
Dec 2, 2009 |
A.S.Mathew, USA
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here is the link you are talking about
http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972
6 MILLION MUSLIMS ALONE A RE CONVERTING TO CHRISTIANITY, BY THEIR OWN WILL. AND IT IS THE REPORT OF NONE OTHER THAN AL- JAZEERA |
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| Kiran, USA |
Dec 2, 2009 |
Inducing is a myth. No law can stand on the way on the works of Holy Spirit. It has its own built-in purpose can't be reduced to zero. -- Antony T. D' Souza
Except maybe an opposing human spirit - opposed to conversion, opposed to violence, opposed to be induced, coerced or forced who love their freedom to be left alone by the predators. It looks like there are a few people very sympathetic to conversions, but are the first ones to condone religious violence that results from that. |
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| Kiran, USA |
Dec 2, 2009 |
A.S. Matthew,
You can dream it as long as you want, but the world is more aware of the religions stomping on other religions toes and invading other religions with coercion or inducement and the violence that follows as a result. Last year the faith in Human Rights of all religions issued a joint declaration with the following declaration in it. "We consider the freedom to have, to retain and to adopt a religion or belief of one’s personal choice, WITHOUT COERCION OR INDUCEMENT, to be an undeniable right.
http://www.faithinhumanrights.org/read/english
As you say, "anti-conversion bill" and "forced conversion" may be new terminologies, so are ponzi schemes or chain snatching. New crimes require new laws.
Since you ask about St. Thomas or Francis Xavier, it might interest you to study the history of Hindu and Christian interactions in history including with Mahatma Gandhi and Vivekananda.
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hhce/
Finally, just to enlighten you a little about peace: Peace is not something that you can "give" anyone, anymore than anyone can "give" another person silence. Silence is what remains when all noises are stopped, Clean is what is left when all dirt is removed, Peace is what is left when any disturbances are removed.
Religions may be many, but spirituality is one. Unbounded Peace and joy are within oneself just as the Bible proclaims that the Kingdom of God is within. Conversion is a sin against humanity at all levels, while Self Realization is the discovery of our true spiritual nature and the Oneness of All. |
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| ajay , India |
Dec 2, 2009 |
| It is not right to eguate social service with propogating faith. We want humans to live as human. Let Christian becaome a good Christian, hindu become good hindu, muslim good muslim and so on. |
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| A.S.Mathew, USA |
Dec 2, 2009 |
Me. Krikanth. Two blind people touched
an elephant, and later they started
a hot argument about the elephant. The
blind man who touched the leg of the
elephant said " it is a pillar" and the
other blind man who touched the tail
said that " elephant is filled with long hair". You are making your observation about Jesus Christ in the same format.
Please go to "karma2grace.org". You can make your own conclusion about anybody, but that need not be correct. Jesus Christ is unique in his birth, death and resurrection. Many people are trying to equate Jesus with other religious leaders, but when you read his life, you will change
your mind.
Benny Hinn is not healing anybody, but it is the prayer of faith. My wife was suffering from a chronic neck pain and was under medication for a longer time, but in one of Benny Hinn's meetings in Atlanta, she prayed along with the thousands, for her healing and she is totally healed. Thousands of people are coming to the faith in Jesus, through their physical healing.
Finally, I have the right to write and
preach what I believe, likewise you have the right to do so. If you have an aversion with my writing, please
don't read it because nobody can please
everybody. God bless you. |
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| Kavitha Shetty, Mangalore, India |
Dec 2, 2009 |
| 98% of Japanese are not belongs to any religion but they only belongs to wonderful religion called human religion. It is amazing how a country which was totally devastated just 60 years ago has now risen to such heights purely due to the attitude and efforts of its people. Whilest fighting each other in the name of religion, we should all salute "Japanese" for their attitude towards religion. |
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| AA, India |
Dec 2, 2009 |
Dear Placid, You are right.
The world is won by The Blood Of JESUS Christ, not by money.
As St. Peter said, "I don't have gold silver, wake up in Jesus Christ Name."
Dear people Forget Charity etc,come to "WORD " first. |
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| Srikanth, India |
Dec 2, 2009 |
My personal belief is Jesus was a great human being & a great leader, but he was no son of god. I also dont believe in his so called miracles described in the Bible. The same argument can be extended to Rama & Krishna. The church has had a notorious history of propagating twisted facts & targeting & killing scientists, during the middle ages, whose discoveries was in opposition to that mentioned in the bible.
Mr Mathew, please spare us from your sermon & get on with life. What about the comedy show the christian evangelist Benny Hinn put up recently in India about miracly healing? I was laughing my guts out.
I'm sure the core of the Bhagvathgita, Quran & the Bible is pretty much the same. So there's no need for any conversion. |
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| Michael Lobo, India |
Dec 2, 2009 |
The purpose of forming a forum necessitated by the recent attacks on Christians, which induced various denominations of followers of Jesus to come together, is indeed a welcome step in the right direction of securing justice and equality in society. Frequent persecutions on Christians will only strengthen their resolve to fight injustice through prayer, love, and forgiveness.
I partly agree with Placid Gregory in the sense that there are plenty of families in our own society who deserve help. But serving your own community in a narrow centric way will only amount to brahmanism. Serve humanity at large in your own way if that act brings satisfaction to you. Remember that priests are also human and they come from our own families. All priests are well educated unlike priests from other religions. You can find service minded priests even today and they need our prayers.
In court of law no single case of conversion is registered by the converts. They are either happy or none got converted (by wish or force). Instead of making speculations and creating a chaos for various reasons, one must go by the data available - through complaints by the affected people or by raising their voice in proper manner. If conversion brings unhappiness and trouble to the person concerned he/she should immediately seek legal assistance. I am sure police are more than willing to register cases of forcible conversions. It is good to hear from people saying that they had encounters with New Life or any other group and they turned away from them. Choice is always left to an individual - what he wants to do and how he want to lead his life. Religion propagates through pragmatic approach. Discourse and dialogue will always happen in democratic society. I am sure no missionary will try to convert with brutal force (like reconversion mission carried out by anti-individual-freedom groups).
We need to protect the diversity of India. It is the strength, it creates opportunities for academic investigations. Ideas and subjects are born in such conditions. Monotheism will destroy the very idea of India. There should be liberal religions and people must be broad minded. Exercising moderate approach without becoming an extremist will solve many problems. There should be people moving from one faith to other, people learning other customs-practices, there should be free access to everything what a person wish to do without harming the dignity and respect of other individual. India should maintain such vibrancy. India is rightly called the Cradle of Life. One cannot stop a person who from his heart wants to practice some other faith. People who obstruct this concept are coming in the way of his/her freedom. Once people get educated no one should force them what they have to do. People should be equipped to take decision for their life. At the end of the day no one will feed you. You have to work hard to secure your food and living. That always comes first.
We would have witnessed a collapse of ruling government which is the main reason for spreading animosity in the society. Nature was at its furious best to test the government priorities. Looting of mineral and mining wealth is overlooked. I think there are major issues which the government has to look into and try to solve them. |
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| Placid Gregory, Mangalore, India |
Dec 2, 2009 |
I find some of the readers have responded on an impulse without going to the core of the issues mentioned by me. Merely increasing the numbers for number sake through service won't serve the purpose. As I have already mentioned, there are thousands of existing christians in need of help. Allow the work of serving the poor of other communities to their own organisations which they prefer. We have already sufferred in the name of religion. Many christians have lost their lives, property and children. Then why give room for unnecessary conflicts in the name of religion and bear the brunt of anger of others. And as for the priests, when they have taken vows of celibacy, piety and poverty, if cannot be followed, let them come out and join the mainstream instead of giving room for scandals and put us to shame.
As for comments by Mr Cyril Fernandes, I am to inform that I don't have an AC and for your information have not taken a vow of celibacy, piety and poverty. I didn't say that the missionaries are not doing service to the poor. I only wanted them back here amongst the existing needy christians and serve them and avoid the exodus of christians.
Mr. Alwyn, Canada, please don't take everything lying down. When there have to be constructive comments, it is your bounden duty to oppose rather than tag on to the robes of the priests. Don't take everything for granted and meekly submit to whatever the priests say considering them holy from top to bottom.
Mr. Benedict, Canada. For your information, in Ganjam, Mysore, a few years back when I visited the Church, there was a protest by the existing kannada christians accusing the parish priest of neglecting them and converting the mochis belonging to the tamil community by offering 5 cents of land and house.
When the need of the hour is peaceful coexistence, Why don't we consider that all religions are good and teach about God the Almighty. Change of religion is insignificant unless we mend our attitude towards life. No one bothers about relgion unless one has vested interest. Let us all live peacefully and let others likewise. |
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| Sachin, UAE |
Dec 2, 2009 |
Conversion indeed takes place and in a major way. How many people in UAE have been given jobs if they convert to christinaity??? Ask the rich cristians who have businesses setup in the gulf. Talking about Kandhamal- They say nobody converted to Christianity ,but why did the media report saying that more then 25000 christian tribals were hiding in the forest in fear of the Hindu fringe groups??? Did they breed overnite? or were they converted?? Orissa was one of the most populated Hindu dominated poor states. Even i was stopped by two school kids from Sacred hearts, Indira nagar in Bangalore and was given a book about Jesus. They said it was part of their project work given by their school to preach about christianity. They even invited me to the church on an sunday to attend the mass. Now what can you call this?
Just by commenting here om this forum, nobody can say Christians dont convert others and now awareness has been created in the Hindus as well about christanity and its conversions. World will definately be better place to live, if even if you help, please for heavens sake dont take Gods name or any religions name. Respect other religions and belive in your own religion, it will make a difference. |
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| Antony T. D' Souza / Karkala-Koppla, Qatar |
Dec 2, 2009 |
| I see there is a major conversion of their hearts - All priests and pastors of all denominations joined under one umbrella - Karnataka United Christian Forum for Human RIghts (KUCFHR). I am totally happy with this development. Earlier everyone were hesitate to come over their barricades. Inducing is a myth. No law can stand on the way on the works of Holy Spirit. It has its own built-in purpose can't be reduced to zero. Further, please read the History below as written by brother A.S. Mathew. |
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| Jerry Moras, Canada |
Dec 2, 2009 |
Mr. Placid, from your knowledge of priesthood life, I suspect you must be ex-priest or you must have had a conflicts with a priest, if not be you must have been denied some benefits which you were expecting from some religious organization.
Let me educate you on vows taken up with religious (priests and nuns) and please don’t write which makes no sense. Priests are human beings like you and me. We, as laity have physical needs; priests or religious needs to control it but yet times when they make one mistake whole world criticizes them. Could he / she could be your own brother /sister. I don’t think you would be able to differentiate between vacation and lucrative job.
Everyone of us have options or vacation to choose something be priestly life or married life. If you think it is lucrative job, why didn’t you opt this option? It is easy for you to criticize priests and nuns finally do they have anything ? No family, wife, children, belongingness. Everything what they have is belongs to entity and what are they working for?
Instead of praying for priests and runs you dare not write ill about them. If you still want to know kind of life they live, eat then go and do likewise. You have seen few priests who love comforts but never make generalized statement. I don’t agree your logic.
If you read history of the church for centuries not everything is bright. If we see history of our country not everything is right. If you see your own life everything you do is right?
Finally let me quote Bible :
Luke 6:42 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye. |
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| Valson Mendonsa, USA |
Dec 2, 2009 |
| Absolutely right' Even small kid can judge this' conversion allegations on christians are for political gain to fill thier vote banks which was highly and systematically organized by ruling political party, if there is real conversion.. there should be a ' Law and Order machinery' to try them. I remembered few years ago there was an attack on christians in Gujrat just before major earthquake in Bhuj area that took lot of lives, same way in Karnataka attack took place just before major flood. Answer is very simple.. don't play with any religion whether Hindism, Christianity or Islam or any other.. |
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| Ashok S, UAE |
Dec 1, 2009 |
New Life has a godfather. Sangliana. Whilst the New Life does not stop its activities, if any of these people (most of whom are Keralites) get into any trouble, jobless Sangliana swings into action. And he quotes law and constitution. Sangliana's good mate is Samuel. A Keralite who is also the chief organiser of the New Life in Karnataka.
Our DK district does not need New Life, and it does not need Sangliana. Both create unnecessary hardship to local people.
It is the job of every citizen of the DK district to identify the New Life activities and write to all websites and the newspapers. This will be enough.
There is no need to break the furniture and window panes and get a bad name. |
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| A.S.Mathew, USA |
Dec 1, 2009 |
"anti-conversion bill" and "forced conversion" are new terminologies without any definite definition.
I am not going to call names of the readers and to start a debate.
Jesus told his disciples before his ascension; simply a dozen of people from the lower stratum of the
society that they should go to all the world and preach the gospel. One of them called Peter preached about Jesus, and 3000 people came to follow Jesus Christ within a few days.
What kind of incentive those people got from a poor fisherman Peter to follow Jesus Christ?
St. Thomas went to India and people began to believe in Jesus, so Christianity took roots in India by the first century itself. What did Thomas give to the new followers of Christ in India?
There is new movement started in Varanasi known as "Christu Bkata". The followersare worshipping Jesus, but they will not change their names or take a baptism. More than 15 thousand followers of Jesus Christ showed up for a three day meeting from all religions and caste. They had a great time of worship and fellowship.
Recently I read that 6 million Muslims
from Asia and Africa are coming to follow Jesus Christ. Most of them had personal encounter with Jesus through visions. Who gave them incentive to follow Christ?
Peraonally I know a Pastor in New Delhi, who started telling about Jesus Christ and his life was started with Rs. 1500.00.
Now in five years, there are over 2000
believers in several churches and 99% of them came to follow Christ through personal miracles of physical healing and other life changing events in their lives, also 100% of them are from other religious background, maninly from Hindu religion.
He had nothing to give but only preached the gospel and prayed for them.
Those people who are chronically lamenting about "forced conversion" must understand that nobody can change somebody's faith through force. People are starving for peace and inner healing and only Jesus can fill that void of life, and it is free to all.
People with fame and money could't find
peace and joy, but when they began to follow Christ, they get an abundant supply of peace and joy, so they follow Him.
"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you" John 14:27.
Those who are weeping for an anti-conversion bill, may please understand that human heart is crying for peace, and they will find that at any cost and anti-conversion bill can't stop that! There will be a federal law one day voiding all the anti-conversion laws enacted in several states of India. There is no divine law that a person born in certain religion has to die as a believer in the same religion.
Religin is a personal choice to follow. |
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| Kiran, USA |
Dec 1, 2009 |
When we came together we made a resolve that all those who want to come under the banner of KUCFHR must decide not to indulge in any kind of induced or forced conversions -- Archbishop Bernard Moras
It is very commendable indeed to take a very positive stand and decide not to indulge in any conversions - forced or induced. Na rahega bans, na bhajegi bansuri.
Bishop Samuel however seems to talk the talk of the thin line between forced and induced conversions. The courts will care whether conversions were forced or not, but the riots caused by conversions and their opponents - do they care ? By the time the courts care, the poor people and innocents would have suffered. Prevention is always better than cure. All religions are about love, forgiveness and gratitude. Conversion is saying implicitly that one religion is somehow better than the others.
As I said before, it is important to distinguish missionaries whose business/barter is conversion in exchange for their services, from missionaries who dedicate their life to humanitarian causes, from churches or places of prayer and worship. People may be sympathetic, against, indifferent or ignorant about conversion. It is indeed the best solution to pass a clearly worded anti-conversion bill, so there is no haggling over words like forced or induced and there will be no more religious violence. We do not want competition among religions nor animosity among them. Harmony is what is the most desirable. Love thy neighbor irrespective of their religion. |
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| Cyril Fernandes, India |
Dec 1, 2009 |
| Placid Gregory, Mangalore, India, you have seen one side of the missionary work in India, you have not seen the reality of their work. Either you are not truthful to yourself evethough you know how much the priest and the nuns do sacrifices to the welfare of the people. All the preists and the nuns may not live in airconditional houses. But some may. Don't you have some of these things in your home too. You cannot generalize all priests and missionaries. Visit north India and see yourself Before you create your own story. |
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| Nithin Poojary, UK |
Dec 1, 2009 |
| I dont support the attack on churches but conversion is taking place all over the country because even i was approached by New Life to get converted. This has to be stopped because due to conversion whole christanity has got a bad name. |
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| Alwyn, Canada |
Dec 1, 2009 |
| Placid, your comments are your own opinion. Keep yourself. |
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| Anand Dsilva, UAE |
Dec 1, 2009 |
| I salute Mr Placid Gregory for the guts to write the comment below something I always wanted to write but never bothered. |
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| Benedict, Canada |
Dec 1, 2009 |
| Placid Gregory.... you are wrong in your assumption that our priests especially missionary priests go to nook and corner of India to propagate faith. Faith is propagated in many ways - not necessarily by converting tribals to Christianity. In present day our missionaries are giving their lives bringing good news to the tribals by imparting knowledge, uplifting them from sickness by teaching cleanliness, character building and teaching them how to be independent. I have first hand knowledge of some priests working in remote corners of Karnataka and I happen to know one priest very closely. In his 25 years of service among 95% non-christians, he built several church sub-stations to serve small packets of christians. 3 schools, polytechnic and medical facilities. When I asked him how many converted to christianity in his 25 years, he said only 1 and that too he refused to convert him and therefore he travelled to Mysore and converted to Christianity. So, before we try to throw stone at anyone including any religion, check what we write on public boards is correct. Kudos to our missionaries priests for their amazing work of uplifting the downtrodden. |
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| fathima-mangalore, India |
Dec 1, 2009 |
| Coversion situation is not allegations but it is the reality. Let us not lie in the name of GOD. |
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| A.S.Mathew, USA |
Dec 1, 2009 |
Before Christ's ascension, His last commission to the disciples was "And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every ceature"
St. Luke 16:16.
In the New Testament, the word "Gospel"
is displayed in 19 books. " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" Romans 1:16.
The Gospel (God+spell) is the message of hope and salvation, which is offered as a free gift to everyone who believes: to the believers of all religions.
The gospel of Christ will change human
heart: it will transform a murderer as a great humanitarian. Every Christian has a mandate to tell that good news to the world, so that the world can be changed as a better place to live. Those people who have
used the new terminology" forced conversion" for political gains, must ask those people who were changed by the power of the gospel. It is great that the Christian community of all denominations are united under one banner to stand for their fundamental rights. |
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| Placid Gregory, Mangalore, India |
Dec 1, 2009 |
| When funds are needed for the upliftment of poor christians who are still in need of shelter, education and proper jobs, why should our priests go to north eastern parts and regions populated by tribals. Is it not with the intention of inducing them through service? The missionaries in the past have increased the christian population for numbers sake by adopting all methods to propagate their religion. Once they were brought in their fold no one bothered to care about them. Why should our priests go to tribal areas of the north, instead, let them come back and work for the downtroden of our community. Leave the work of upliftment of the poor to the Hindu brothers, whose RSS and other cadres have already started work in the tribal areas. Give them also an opportunity to do social service. Why should lay people bear the brunt of accusation and suffer un-necessarily because of the priests. As it is thousands of christians are going out of the community because of the attitude of the priests. The final vows of piety, chastity and poverty etc are only till the time of ordination as priests. Once they are in charge of the Parish everything is forgotten and they need airconditioned homes and all kinds of luxuries whereas poor people languish without proper food, shelter, education and jobs. The priesthood has become a lucrative job instead of a vocation. God only has to save us. |
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